Je m’en souviens

Винсент Дефурни, ЮНЕСКО директору:

“Эгер ЮНЕСКО болбогондо…”

Биз ЮНЕСКОдо дүйнөлүк мурастардын тизмеси бар экенин жана ага катар “материалдык эмес дүйнөлүк мурастардын тизмеси” деген да болоорун билебиз. Демек, маданий элементтерди жана маданий ар түрдүүлүктү колдоо деген эки компонент - ЮНЕСКОнун жалпы системасынын бир бөлүгү болуп саналат. Дүйнөлүк мурастар туурасында 72-конвенция деген бар, ал мамлекеттерди өзгөчө жана универсалдуу жерлерди колдоого алганга үндөгөн конвенция. Бул конвенция жөн гана кооз же башкалардан кызыктуу болгон жерлерге гана көңүл бурбастан чындап өзгөчөлөнгөн касиет, баалуулугу бар жерлерди кучагына алат. Демек, дүйнөлүк мурастар тизмесине кошуу иши - бул кооздуктар боюнча конкурс эмес же болбосо ал кайсы өлкөдө көп өзгөчө жер табылаар экен деген жарыш эмес. Бул – Адамзат атынан коргоого алына турган асыл иш. Бул – өзгөчө жана универсалдуу деп саналган жерлерди муундан-муунга сактап жана өткөрүп бере турган иш. Ушунун баары 72-конвенция алып бара турган иш. Мындан сырткары 2003-конвенция дагы бар. Ал – кайсы бир өлкө же жамаат тарабынан жасалган материалдык эмес мурастар боюнча конвенция. Бул эки конвенциянын башкача айтканда бул эки иштин бири-биринен айырмачылыгы бар. Башкысы, материалдык эмес мурастар алар ошол кайсы бир өлкө же жамаатка тиешелүү болгон же алар үчүн өзгөчө маанилүү болгон маданий байлыктар. Бул эки учурдун кайсынысы болбосун ал ЮНЕСКОго мүчө өлкөлөрдүн талкуусу аркылуу өтөт. Дүйнөлүк мурастарды таанууда өтө кылдаттык менен карала турган этап бар. Мына ошол маанилүү этаптан соң гана чечим кабыл алынат. Айта кетчү нерсе материалдык эмес мурастарды кабыл алууда жөнөкөй гана текшерүү болот, маселен, эгерде кайсы бир жамаат бизге бул материалдык эмес байлык маанилүү деп тастыктап берсе болду, ошондон баштап ал нерсе автоматтык түрдө материалдык эмес байлыктар катарына кирет. Маданий ар түрдүүлүктү коргоодо жана аны өөрчүтүүдө ЮНЕСКОнун мына ушундай эки кырдуу иш аракети бар. Эмне үчүн ЮНЕСКО маданият ааламын

Vincent Defourny, Directeur de l’UNESCO :

« Et si l’UNESCO n’existait pas… »

VD : À l’UNESCO, nous connaissons la liste du patrimoine mondial, mais il n’y a pas que cette liste, il y a aussi celle du patrimoine immatériel. Ainsi, ces deux volets s'inscrivent dans un dispositif global de l’UNESCO visant à protéger les éléments culturels et à promouvoir la diversité culturelle. La convention de 1972, relative au patrimoine mondial, encourage les États à protéger des sites ayant une valeur exceptionnelle et universelle. Elle ne se limite pas à la beauté ou à l'intérêt relatif des sites, mais vise plutôt ceux qui ont une valeur exceptionnelle et universelle. Ainsi, l'inscription sur la liste du patrimoine mondial n'est pas un concours de beauté, mais une démarche visant à protéger ces sites au nom de l'Humanité.

La convention de 2003, quant au patrimoine immatériel, concerne toutes les pratiques culturelles développées dans un pays ou par des communautés. Il s'agit de reconnaître des pratiques culturelles importantes pour une communauté, et contrairement au patrimoine mondial, l'inscription sur la liste du patrimoine immatériel se fait presque automatiquement dès lors qu'une communauté déclare que cette pratique est essentielle pour elle. Ces deux aspects du travail de l’UNESCO visent à promouvoir et protéger la diversité des pratiques culturelles.

L'UNESCO travaille sur les questions culturelles, car la culture est un levier important pour construire la paix dans l’esprit des hommes et des femmes. C'est à travers la culture, l'éducation, la science et la communication que l'on peut trouver les mécanismes de reconnaissance entre les peuples. C'est cette idée fondamentale qui guide l'UNESCO : quels sont les éléments culturels qui permettent de construire la paix.

Comment puis-je présenter les pratiques de mon pays à l’UNESCO ?

VD : Cela dépend du type de pratique. Si c'est un monument ou un lieu ayant une valeur culturelle ou naturelle, il faut suivre une démarche pour constituer un dossier de candidature. L'État du Kirghizistan doit inscrire le lieu sur la liste indicative et sur la liste qu'il souhaite présenter à l'UNESCO. Ensuite, un dossier détaillé doit être constitué, répondant à de nombreux critères, ce qui constitue un processus souvent long, parfois prenant 15 à 20 ans. Il est essentiel de documenter les raisons pour lesquelles on souhaite inscrire ce lieu en fonction des critères de la convention de 1972. Une fois le dossier complet, des ONG indépendantes évaluent le site avant de présenter leur évaluation au comité du patrimoine mondial, composé de 28 pays élus qui décideront de l'inscription ou non sur la liste.

Connaissez-vous des lieux que vous voudriez classer ?

VD : Non, la démarche doit commencer au niveau national. Chaque pays doit identifier les lieux qu'il souhaite protéger, conformément à ses lois nationales. Seulement après cela, la démarche peut devenir internationale. C'est un principe fondamental.

Si l'UNESCO n'avait pas été créée en 1945, que serait-il advenu des richesses du monde ?

VD : Si l'UNESCO n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer. Il est difficile d'imaginer un scénario pour les 75 dernières années sans l'UNESCO. L'organisation a joué un rôle crucial dans des projets tels que le CERN, le développement du Web, la préservation de monuments tels que ceux de Nubie en Égypte, et a jeté les bases du concept de développement durable avec le programme « l'Homme et la biosphère » dans les années 60. L'UNESCO travaille de manière approfondie dans de nombreux domaines pour rapprocher les peuples et construire la paix.

Y a-t-il des ennemis de l'UNESCO ?

VD : L'UNESCO n'a pas d'ennemis déclarés, mais l'ignorance et le refus de la diversité sont ses principaux adversaires. L'organisation veut travailler avec tout le monde de manière inclusive, cherchant à construire la paix dans l'esprit des hommes.

Le mandat de l'UNESCO reste-t-il le même ?

VD : Le mandat de l'UNESCO est plus actuel que jamais et très fort. Cependant, comme pour de nombreuses organisations internationales, les moyens attribués ne sont pas toujours à la hauteur du mandat. Le budget de l'UNESCO équivaut environ au budget d'une université en Europe, bien loin des budgets militaires.

Est-ce toujours regrettable que deux pays aient quitté l'UNESCO ?

VD : C'est toujours dommage lorsque des pays quittent l'UNESCO, comme les États-Unis et Israël. Cependant, la porte de l'UNESCO reste ouverte, et tous les États membres désireux de la rejoindre sont les bienvenus. L'objectif est d'être aussi universel que possible.

Beaucoup de fondations et d'ONG pensent que l'UNESCO peut aider financièrement. Comment répondez-vous à cela ?

VD : L'UNESCO n'a pas de moyens financiers pour soutenir spécifiquement les activités des ONG. Son travail consiste à créer des conditions pour le développement des compétences dans chaque pays, à travers des formations et des réunions internationales établissant des normes et orientations.

Pensez-vous qu'il y a des côtés négatifs à la mondialisation ?

VD : Lorsque la mondialisation signifie uniformisation au détriment de la diversité culturelle, c'est un appauvrissement du monde. La diversité culturelle est aussi importante que la biodiversité. La mondialisation doit favoriser la diversité culturelle tout en créant des ponts pour construire une pensée collective.

Pendant l'URSS, il y avait le rideau de fer, et après l'ouverture, des changements sont survenus. Certains disent que les mentalités ont changé à cause des Occidentaux. Qu'en pensez-vous ?

VD : Il est essentiel de reconnaître et de préserver ce qui est important dans chaque culture tout en créant des passerelles pour la compréhension mutuelle. La diversité culturelle ne doit pas être repliée sur elle-même, mais cultivée et partagée.

Quels continents ont le plus contribué à la liste du patrimoine mondial ?

VD : Initialement orientée selon des critères occidentaux, la liste du patrimoine mondial a évolué avec l'expression de pays et continents ayant une tradition orale importante. La convention du patrimoine immatériel a été créée pour reconnaître la diversité culturelle, permettant d'inclure des pratiques culturelles variées provenant du monde entier.

En ce qui concerne les langues en danger, quelles mesures l'UNESCO prend-elle ?

VD : L'UNESCO suit l'évolution des langues et dialectes, publiant un atlas en ligne des langues en danger. La diversité linguistique est essentielle, car chaque langue porte une culture unique.

Quel est le niveau de dangerosité des problèmes mondiaux tels que le réchauffement climatique ?

VD : Là où la dignité humaine est bafouée, il y a un problème. Les défis peuvent prendre de nombreuses formes, de la haine sur internet au terrorisme. L'UNESCO s'efforce de s'attaquer à ces problèmes pour rapprocher les peuples.

Enfin, qu'en pensez-vous des classements annuels du pays le plus heureux ?

VD : Les classements du pays le plus heureux manquent de crédibilité en raison du manque de méthodologie et de critères clairs pour définir le bonheur. L'UNESCO ne les considère pas comme des indicateurs valables.

Zhenishbek EDIGEEV

Vincent Defourny, Director of UNESCO:

"What if UNESCO did not exist ..."

VD: At UNESCO we know the world heritage list but it is not only the world heritage list there is also the list of intangible heritage. There are therefore two components which themselves form part of a general UNESCO system for the protection of cultural elements and for the promotion of cultural diversity. The Convention of 72, therefore the World Heritage Convention, is a convention which aims to encourage States to protect sites which have exceptional and universal value. It’s a convention that doesn’t just want to focus on beautiful sites or on sites that are more interesting than others, but on sites that have exceptional and universal value. Protection, inscription on the World Heritage List is a process of protection in the name of Humanity, it is not a beauty contest, it is not a contest to find out who is the country that has more sites than others.

It is an approach to protect and transmit to future generations the exceptional and universal character of these sites. This is the convention of 72, the convention of 2003 which is the intangible heritage convention concerns all cultural practices that are developed in a country or by communities. It is an approach which is not the same as for World Heritage but which is the recognition of cultural practices which are important for a community. In both cases there is a submission procedure by the member state. Within the framework of World Heritage there is a very strict evaluation stage and after a World Heritage decision. In the case of intangible heritage there is just a verification that these are important practices for a community, and the inscription on the list of intangible heritage is done almost automatically from the moment a community says that indeed this practice is important for us. These are the two facets of UNESCO’s work to promote and protect the diversity of cultural practices. UNESCO works on cultural issues because culture is an important lever for building peace in the minds of men and women, and it is through culture, education, science and communication that 'we can find the mechanisms, we can find recognition between peoples. It is this idea that is really fundamental for UNESCO, it is: what are the elements, the cultural levers that allow to build peace.

- How can I present my country's practices to UNESCO?

VD: So it depends on what it is. If it is a monument, if it is a place that has a value, a cultural or natural place, there is a process for compiling an application file. The State of Kyrgyzstan must inscribe the place on the indicative list and on the list they wish to present to UNESCO. Then a long file must be formed. There are a lot of criteria to fulfill, it's a very, very long process. In some cases it takes 15 to 20 years. It is really necessary to document the reasons for which has wants to register this place compared to the criteria of the convention of 72. The criteria are very precise therefore it is really necessary to study the file compared to these criteria and according to these criteria have can go up or not the folder. And if the file is complete and corresponds a priori to the criteria of the agreement, it is sent to independent NGOs, depending on the nature of the property that is proposed for registration, who will make an assessment and will confirm whether the site is exceptional or not and for what reasons. This assessment will be presented to the World Heritage Committee, in which there are 28 elected countries which meet once a year at the World Heritage Committee, who will inscribe or not the property proposed on the World Heritage list. So this is a very long, difficult process, which must be very documented.

- You, for example, do you know places that you would like to classify? VD: No, then the process must first start in the country. Each country must identify the places it wants to protect, first nationally. This is one of the criteria, the place must be protected in national laws. Only then can it become international. For natural sites it’s about the same, but the procedures are a little bit different. - A slightly more philosophical question, if UNESCO had not been created in 1945, what would have become of the riches of the world, how do you imagine? VD: If UNESCO did not exist it would have to be invented. It is very difficult to make a scenario of the last 75 years and to say to yourself well if UNESCO had not existed what would have happened? The question of culture is one aspect, but it is not the only aspect of UNESCO. There is all the work on education, on science, on communication ... I can give some examples of important achievements. Here in Geneva we know CERN which is an important institution which is the biggest international scientific cooperation project, it was an initiative of UNESCO. CERN was born at UNESCO. The convention that created CERN has been deposited with UNESCO. CERN is a "baby", so to speak, of UNESCO. So if UNESCO had not been there, would CERN have existed?

I do not know. There is not only CERN there are also the "children" of CERN and among the "children" of CERN there are "clones" of CERN. For example in the Middle East there is a project in Jordan which makes scientists, physicists from 11 different countries work: Israel, Iran, Pakistan, Turkey… All these physicists work together around a scientific instrument roughly analogous to the CERN. You could say, if CERN had not existed, would the Web have existed? The Web was born at CERN, The World Wide Web. Here ! So we can ask ourselves questions: if there hadn't been UNESCO there might not have been CERN, there might not have been a Web, there might not have been not have sesame etc. Similarly, the monuments of Nubia, in the south of Egypt, the Abu Sibel site, were to be flooded, submerged by the construction of Lake Nasser. If Unesco had probably not existed, the campaign which had been launched by archaeologists would not have had the resonance it had and probably that these monuments would have been buried and would have disappeared. Have saved them, rebuilt them above etc. But the same can be said of the Angkor sites in Cambodia, the same can be said of many other sites and places around the world. The concept of sustainable development would have existed if UNESCO had not already, in the 1960s, launched a program called "Man and the Biosphere". At the time, most countries wanted to create national parks. Closed parks where we put fences, where we do not let tourists in or let them in but we make a very clear separation between natural protection and human activities. Already in the 1960s, UNESCO said: "National parks are good, but a balance must be found between man and the biosphere". We have to find a balance between human activity and the preservation of the environment. In the 60s at one point when nobody was talking about these issues. And in this program, "Man and the Biosphere", we laid the foundations for what we now call sustainable development, which is the balance between both environmental development, finally environmental protection, development economic and social development. And who found form in the 17 sustainable development goals. And I can go on like this in many ways. In terms of education for example, would we have reached the levels of education today?

If UNESCO had not really pleaded around the world to say: Education for all is a fundamental human right. The same goes for the protection of journalists. Were there more journalists killed? Or threatened? If each time a journalist is the victim of threats, UNESCO does not systematically denounce and that there is not an action plan for the protection and safeguarding of journalists? It is very difficult to say what would have happened if there had not been UNESCO but in any case what is certain is that UNESCO works in a very thorough and very diligent in all these areas there to bring people together, to build peace in the minds of men. Because that’s the vocation of UNESCO. So all of this is obviously based on human rights. - For example, without culture there is no development. Unfortunately in many countries including the former Soviet Union the government spends more on other spheres than on culture.

VD: But in all the countries of the world the budget allocated to culture is too low, too limited, it is unfortunately a rule and even today, for example, at the Human Rights Council, the special reporter for cultural rights made a very interesting report which widened the concept of human rights defender to all actors in the world of culture who fall within the framework of international law and standards, started with the Declaration of the rights of Man, and who act. Today there is an inclusion of these cultural rights defenders as human rights defenders who must also be protected and who must be listened to. -Is there the enemy of UNESCO? Certain forces which would like to diminish the influence of UNESCO? VD: UNESCO has no enemies, except ignorance and the rejection of the other, the rejection of diversity are the main enemies of UNESCO. But these are characteristics that can be found in a certain number of people, sometimes with certain leaders. But UNESCO has no identified enemies, on the contrary, UNESCO wants to work with everyone and UNESCO is completely inclusive and seeks to ensure that everyone can make this end of the road, from the moment when we agree to work on education, science, culture, within the framework of international solidarity. Again to build peace in the minds of men.

- And UNESCO's mandate still has the same level? VD: UNESCO’s mandate is more current than ever, it is very strong. Now, as for UNESCO as for the United Nations and for many international organizations unfortunately the means which are allotted to these organizations there do not always live up to the mandate which is given to these organizations. So you have to be very creative to try to advance all the subjects with the small means that we have. You know the UNESCO budget is more or less equivalent to the budget of a university in Europe. If we compare with the military budget, it is beyond measure. - Is it still a shame that two countries left? VD: It’s always a shame when countries leave UNESCO. For their own reasons, they chose not to stay in Unesco because they found at one point that they could no longer be part of that organization. So it's about the United States and Israel. It is not the first time that the United States has left UNESCO. The United States already left UNESCO in 1984 and returned in 2002. But there are many other member states which left and returned: South Africa, from the time of l 'Apartheid left UNESCO, it returned when the government became democratic. The door to UNESCO is always open and all member states wishing to join UNESCO are obviously welcome. UNESCO’s goal is to be as universal as possible.

- Speaking of funding, many foundations and NGOs believe that UNESCO can help financially. How do you respond to them? VD: UNESCO does not have the financial means to help or come to support NGO activities etc. in a very particular way. But we are not going to dwell on this. UNESCO’s work is long-term work, which seeks more to create the conditions so that skills can be developed in each country. So we will work on training, we will work on international meetings which will, for example, constitute international standards, reflections or guidelines like today, for example, on artificial intelligence, and what are the ethical principles which must accompany the development of artificial intelligence. UNESCO does not work technologically on artificial intelligence but thoughtful and wants to organize the global reflection around the esthetics in relation to artificial intelligence. - Find solutions… VD: Yes and to give ourselves an international normative framework. But there are many other examples of this nature there. - Do you find that there are bad sides to globalization?

VD: When globalization means standardization: standardization of cultural practices, standardization of languages, standardization of ways of being around the world, it is clear that the world is losing its richness. Because the richness of the world is its diversity and cultural diversity. It is clearly written in the Declaration on Cultural Diversity that cultural diversity is for the world as important as biodiversity is for nature. So cultural diversity is essential, this is absolutely fundamental. And this cultural diversity should not be folded in on itself. We must cultivate diversity, we must recognize diversity but above all create all the bridges and all the bridges so that in diversity we can also build a common thought, a collective thought.

- During the USSR there was the Iron Curtain, after the opening many things happened to us and it was said that our mentalities had changed because of the Westerners. But I see that here too it is said that bad things come from the United States or others. What do you think ?

VD: In itself there are no bad things. That’s why we have to promote culture. If you want, what is very important is to recognize what is important in each culture and it can be in a Swiss valley or in a city anywhere in the world that has a specific cultural practice… Let’s take it example of the transhumance of cows in the pastures and who come back down to spend the winter months in the valley. It is an ancestral practice which is in Switzerland, which is very particular, which will undoubtedly be included in the list of intangible heritage and we must keep this practice there, young people must understand that it is important that their identity c is built on it. It is an individual and collective identity and it is necessary both to preserve it to be for its children but also to make it known to others. So it is always this dialectic between consolidating what is constitutive of the dignity of each but also the opening and the bridge that must be made for the understanding of the culture of the other.

- Which continents have given the most to the World Heritage list?

VD: It’s clear that the World Heritage List was born at a time when we thought a lot about Western criteria. We have registered a lot of baroque or Gothic churches and cathedrals in Europe: in France, in Spain, in Italy… Exceptional places of this nature there. But it is precisely because countries or continents with an important oral tradition are expressed. They said it was the heritage list we are not against at all but there are other forms of culture, there are other forms of heritage. This is why we created the intangible heritage convention which opens up to practices that can be cultural habits: parties, songs, ways of cooking, sports, activities ... The intangible heritage is very varied. . But these are practices that are important for communities. For example: the construction of stone walls in the countryside to cultivate, to make houses etc. There are about a dozen countries that have said: these are practices that we do at home and it is important. Even if there are differences we can see the similarities between the techniques, in Greece or Switzerland or in Spain or in other countries of the world. The same also applies to the practice of falconry which has been declared important in around twenty countries. It is inscribed in the intangible heritage but as a practice of various countries. There is no exclusivity. There is never an exclusivity on the contrary. The Silk Road for example, Kyrgyzstan is on this Silk Road and was a place of passage and exchange between practices from the Far East and the West and which met on this Road silk and which have been transformed because at each stage we have to transform things. But that’s what’s beautiful in the world.

- Another question about language. There are many languages that are disappearing. What are the measures taken by UNESCO. ?

VD: Yes, UNESCO has a program. We follow very precisely the evolution of languages, dialects. We publish an atlas of endangered languages. It is an atlas that we find online where we can see that in different regions of the world, finally everywhere in the world we are losing this linguistic diversity. So language is obviously very important because with each language there is a whole way of thinking, a whole way of thinking, a whole way of interacting with others and language is a culture. Linguistic diversity is part of cultural diversity.

- In the world there are many problems like global warming problems etc. How dangerous is it?

VD: This is a very broad question, I would say that wherever human dignity is flouted, there is cause for concern. Wherever people are not recognized in their dignity there is a problem and it can take a thousand different aspects. It can be linked to hate speech on the internet in social networks, it can be terrorism and violent actions that are carried out by groups around the world. It can go from the relationship between two people, two children at school who insult each other and who do not respect each other but it can also go when countries or regions of the world oppose, turn their backs and refuse to dialogue. These are problems and these are problems for UNESCO, these are problems that must be tackled.

- Last question, there is an international organization which makes statistics every year on who is the happiest in the world. What do you think ?

VD: I don't give credit to these statistics.

- Why ?

VD: What is the methodology? What is the criteria? What is the principle of happiness? Happiness can be defined in many different ways. UNESCO does not give credit to its values.

- Unfortunately many people believe in this statistic.

VD: Unfortunately, there are people who believe that the world is flat.

Венсан Дефурни, директор ЮНЕСКО:

"Что было бы, если бы ЮНЕСКО не существовало?

В.Д.: В ЮНЕСКО мы знаем о списке всемирного наследия, но он не единственный, есть еще список нематериального наследия. Таким образом, эти два аспекта являются частью общего плана ЮНЕСКО по защите культурных элементов и поощрению культурного разнообразия. Конвенция о всемирном наследии 1972 года призывает государства охранять объекты, имеющие выдающуюся и универсальную ценность. Она не ограничивается красотой или относительным интересом объектов, а нацелена на те, которые имеют исключительную и универсальную ценность. Таким образом, включение в Список всемирного наследия - это не конкурс красоты, а процесс, направленный на защиту этих объектов на благо человечества.

Что касается нематериального наследия, то в Конвенции 2003 года речь идет обо всех культурных традициях, сложившихся в стране или сообществах. Она признает культурные практики, которые важны для общества, и, в отличие от Конвенции о всемирном наследии, включение в список нематериального наследия происходит почти автоматически, как только сообщество заявляет, что та или иная практика важна для него. Эти два аспекта деятельности ЮНЕСКО направлены на поощрение и защиту разнообразия культурных практик.

ЮНЕСКО интересуется культурой, поскольку она является важным рычагом для построения мира в духе мира.

Как я могу представить ЮНЕСКО практику своей страны?

В.Д.: Это зависит от типа практики. Если речь идет о памятнике или объекте, представляющем культурную или природную ценность, то необходимо следовать процедуре составления заявки. Государство Кыргызстан должно включить объект в предварительный список и в список, который оно хочет представить в ЮНЕСКО. Затем необходимо составить подробное досье, отвечающее многочисленным критериям, что зачастую является длительным процессом, иногда занимающим от 15 до 20 лет. Очень важно документально обосновать причины включения объекта в список в соответствии с критериями Конвенции 1972 года. После составления досье независимые неправительственные организации оценивают объект, а затем представляют свою оценку Комитету всемирного наследия, состоящему из 28 избранных стран, которые решают, включать или не включать объект в список.

Знаете ли вы какие-нибудь объекты, которые вы хотели бы видеть в списке?

В.Д.: Нет, процесс должен начаться на национальном уровне. Каждая страна должна определить места, которые она хочет защитить, в соответствии со своими национальными законами. Только после этого процесс может стать международным. Это основополагающий принцип.

Если бы ЮНЕСКО не была создана в 1945 году, что случилось бы с мировыми богатствами?

В.Д.: Если бы ЮНЕСКО не существовала, нам пришлось бы ее изобрести. Трудно представить себе сценарий последних 75 лет без ЮНЕСКО. Организация сыграла решающую роль в таких проектах, как ЦЕРН, создание Всемирной паутины, сохранение памятников, таких как памятники Нубии в Египте, и заложила основы концепции устойчивого развития в рамках программы "Человек и биосфера" в 1960-х годах. ЮНЕСКО ведет активную работу во многих областях, чтобы объединить людей и построить мир.

Есть ли у ЮНЕСКО враги?

В.Д.: У ЮНЕСКО нет объявленных врагов, но невежество и неприятие разнообразия - ее главные противники. Организация стремится работать со всеми на основе инклюзивного подхода, стремясь построить мир в умах людей.

Остается ли мандат ЮНЕСКО неизменным?

В.Д.: Мандат ЮНЕСКО актуален и силен, как никогда. Однако, как и во многих других международных организациях, выделяемые ресурсы не всегда соответствуют мандату. Бюджет ЮНЕСКО примерно эквивалентен бюджету европейского университета, что далеко от военных бюджетов.

Вызывает ли сожаление тот факт, что две страны покинули ЮНЕСКО?

В.Д.: Всегда жаль, когда такие страны, как США и Израиль, покидают ЮНЕСКО. Однако двери ЮНЕСКО остаются открытыми, и все государства-члены, желающие присоединиться к ней, могут быть приняты. Цель - быть как можно более универсальной.

Многие фонды и НПО считают, что ЮНЕСКО может помочь финансово. Как вы на это реагируете?

В.Д.: ЮНЕСКО не располагает финансовыми средствами, чтобы специально поддерживать деятельность НПО. Ее работа заключается в создании условий для развития навыков в каждой стране, через обучение и международные встречи, устанавливающие стандарты и руководящие принципы.

Как вы считаете, есть ли у глобализации отрицательные стороны?

В.Д.: Когда глобализация означает стандартизацию в ущерб культурному разнообразию, мир от этого становится беднее. Культурное разнообразие так же важно, как и биоразнообразие. Глобализация должна способствовать культурному разнообразию, создавая мосты для формирования коллективного мышления.

Во времена СССР существовал "железный занавес", а после его открытия произошли изменения. Некоторые люди говорят, что отношение изменилось благодаря Западу. Каково ваше мнение на этот счет?

В.Д.: Очень важно признавать и сохранять то, что важно в каждой культуре, и при этом наводить мосты взаимопонимания. Культурное разнообразие нужно не обращать на себя, а культивировать и совместно использовать.

Какие континенты внесли наибольший вклад в составление Списка всемирного наследия?

В.Д.: Изначально основанный на западных критериях, Список всемирного наследия развивался, чтобы включить страны и континенты с важной устной традицией. Конвенция о нематериальном наследии была создана для признания культурного разнообразия, что позволило включить в список разнообразные культурные практики со всего мира.

Какие меры принимает ЮНЕСКО для защиты языков, находящихся под угрозой исчезновения?

В.Д.: ЮНЕСКО следит за эволюцией языков и диалектов, публикуя в Интернете атлас языков, находящихся под угрозой исчезновения. Языковое разнообразие очень важно, поскольку каждый язык несет в себе уникальную культуру.

Насколько опасны такие глобальные проблемы, как глобальное потепление?

В.Д.: Везде, где нарушается человеческое достоинство, есть проблема. Проблемы могут принимать различные формы, от ненависти в Интернете до терроризма. ЮНЕСКО стремится решать эти проблемы, чтобы объединить людей.

И наконец, что вы думаете о ежегодных рейтингах самых счастливых стран?

ВД: Рейтинги самых счастливых стран не вызывают доверия из-за отсутствия методологии и четких критериев определения счастья. ЮНЕСКО не считает их достоверными показателями.

Женишбек ЭДИГЕЕВ